Impact Innovators at the Fireside

Defeating Digital Distraction
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[00:00:00]

Introduction: The Social Media Vortex
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Arje Cahn: Recognize this? You pick up your phone to check the time and somehow you end up in a two hour social media vortex.. Our phones have become the world's trickiest escape rooms, masterfully engineered to keep us distracted and scrolling endlessly.

Meet Caroline Cadwell: The Tech Pioneer
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Arje Cahn: Meet Caroline Cadwell. A tech industry veteran who stepped off the attention economy, hamster wheel to pioneer something delightfully counter-intuitive. Uh, technology that actually wants you to stop getting distracted.

Her users save an extra hour and 22 minutes every day for offline use. And they keep saving it month after month after month. So let's discover how she's cracked the code to defeating digital distraction. Hey Caroline, great to have you on the call today.

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah, thanks for having me, Arje. It's great to see you again.

Arje Cahn: We couldn't have a real fireside chat, but we're doing this one remote.

Caroline Cadwell: well, it keeps our [00:01:00] carbon footprint a little bit lower, right?

Arje Cahn: Absolutely. Yeah, no,

agree there. So you're, you're in, in the UK right now. I'm based out of Amsterdam, the Netherlands, so we're. A little bit further apart, but thanks for taking the call today and discussing your major world problem and the technology that you're building to help solve it. So let's start there.

The Problem of Digital Distraction
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Arje Cahn: If you would describe the problem that you decided to tackle, what would that be?

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah. Um, it's a really pervasive problem just to frame it for everyone. Um, I'm battling the, the problem of distraction. In a way that it really impacts people's quality of life. So specifically, um, maybe something relatable, you pick up your phone to check the time and your thumb automatically has unlocked your screen, which was not what you may be intended to do.

And then suddenly you have tapped on those colorful icon [00:02:00] on your home screen and then automatically cycled through to another second favorite app. Um, and suddenly, you know, By the end of the day, four hours have been spent, five hours, six hours have been spent scrolling on stuff that you don't particularly care about or remember.

And, uh, it's an opportunity cost problem and the habits that we have of how we use our phones.

Arje Cahn: And if you would it a name, you know, what would

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah. Um, digital, digital wellbeing, digital habits.

Arje Cahn: Yeah,

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah.

Arje Cahn: this is a major problem. I, struggle with it myself, but I also see it with my family, with my children, you know, they're, they're, uh, teenagers now, they're, they're not glued to their phones, luckily, but, um, know, they have this tendency. um, so it's great that you're, you're, you're working on this.

You're trying to, trying to solve for [00:03:00] it. So totally agree. They're a major problem.

Caroline's Journey to Unpluq
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Arje Cahn: Can you take us back to the moment where, uh, in your career, you, you decided to focus on this particular topic? I know you have a background in technology and you've worked with several digital companies before, and then all of a sudden you make this switch to kind of the. The other side of it and defending people from digital, uh, unwellness or digital addiction. Maybe even can you talk a little bit about that? Um,

Caroline Cadwell: that's a whole other, uh, episode, but in short, it was a lack of control of my own schedule. And, uh, it's kind of toxic, uh, I hate to use that word cause it's so buzzy right now, but, but genuinely, um, not normal, [00:04:00] respectful workplace interactions and, uh, the, the last component of, of why I burned out was the one I could control, which is boundaries with work.

And I found myself looking at Slack or work email or responding to things or taking work calls. In moments that I should have had downtime, like walking my dog, um, and being able to look at something green and not be looking at a screen. Um, and so, um, following that and following the recovery from that, I took some time to think about what I really cared about in terms of what kind of company I wanted to work in or start.

And in my case, I've known for a long time, I wanted to be a founder. And I've kind of used my career to train to become one and kind of cover all the different, uh, operational aspects and learn what I could and, uh, following that burnout, I ended up meeting my current co founder, Yorn. And he was already working on Unpluq [00:05:00] and Unpluq is a tool to help you spend more time offline, be more mindful about how you use your phone.

And it made a lot of sense to me from a work perspective, in terms of bringing boundaries, and it was really interesting because for him, it was about focusing during work. And so you can see how, yeah, how distraction with our phones and how. Using them in the wrong way or at the wrong time, which is they've been engineered to make us do that.

By the way, a lot of money has been poured into keeping our attention on that screen and using our biological responses to make us want to do that. Um, yeah, it was something that mattered to me personally and would have impacted my life a year earlier if I had known about it in a positive way. And that I thought I could contribute to with the skills that I had built over the last 15 years.

How Unpluq Works
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Arje Cahn: And maybe it's also good now that we're here [00:06:00] that we talk a little bit about the technology itself. mentioned your co founder, your. was already working on, on this idea. What was the idea behind Unpluq?

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah. Um, so the general concept is why is it so hard to not look at our phones? Why is it so hard? Why? Like, why can't you just put the phone down? And I think, you know, um, newsflash, if you could just put the phone down, everyone would be putting the phone down and yet screen time is increasing every year.

Our daily screen time continues to go up and it's certainly worse in younger, um, groups that grew up with the technology and didn't just adopt it when they were older. Yeah. So

Arje Cahn: [00:07:00] Silence.

Caroline Cadwell: find a sustainable change and a way to do that sustainable change. It is not doing the change itself in this case. Um, And so he, he was, uh, finding that when he was in his studies, when he was still in university, because my co founder, you aren't as a bit younger than me.

And he was finding that, uh, he would, uh, check the time and suddenly be playing a game of chess or in a WhatsApp group, uh, responding to things or, and it was frustrating because he, he wanted to control his time differently. He wanted to be using that time to study and then be

Arje Cahn: Yeah. [00:08:00] All

Caroline Cadwell: and they're very easy to bypass. And that's by design because we've been trained on these particular, what we call design patterns. Um, where even a normal person who's not in tech automatically knows where to tap, where to interact on their phone. And so, if you look at, for example, um, the screen time settings that your phone might natively have.

So if you have an iPhone, you know, there's focus times or there's app limits. When you reach those app limits or you get to that focus time, Your phone will prompt you. Do you want to disable for today and ignore this limit? Or do you want 15 more minutes? And the option to close the app is the smallest,

Arje Cahn: Yeah.

Caroline Cadwell: friction full one to tap.

And so,

Arje Cahn: minutes. Yeah.

Caroline Cadwell: right, that's the easiest one to tap actually that and disable for the day. And the close the app and stop is the one that is by design the hardest to choose. Um, and [00:09:00] we started thinking about why are digital solutions not working and what else can we do? And. It occurred to us that we need more friction.

There's a, there's a theory around this actually called the rational override theory. Um, and in short, you need to make things that you don't want to do harder to do.

Arje Cahn: Yeah.

Caroline Cadwell: And a good way to do that is to force a different part of your brain to make the decision. So when you are on a screen and you're making decisions, you're using one part of your brain and by making you do something physical in order to complete that decision, You actually invoke a different part of your brain to work, which gets you out of that pattern that, that Pavlovian response of, Hey, I was looking at the time and suddenly I've opened a nap and I've unlocked my screen and I'm scrolling.

And so with Unpluq, we thought about how can we introduce a physical action? And we did that by making an NFC based key. So it's, if you're not familiar with NFC technology, it's the same thing as wireless payments. So you need to physically touch [00:10:00] your phone and our wireless key, which, um. I would show you, but if I wanted to open apps that I shouldn't be opening right now, I would literally have to go downstairs and get my keys because it's a little fob on my key chain.

And that changes what decision you make about using your phone. It stops the unintentional scrolling. And um, that's good because at the end of the day, I don't think anyone says, gee, I wish I'd spent another hour on Reddit or TikTok or Instagram or news or anything else. On their phone

Arje Cahn: works.

Caroline Cadwell: work. Um, so that's, that's kind of a processor to having a successful company is, uh, this product actually help people. And indeed it does. And it helps people more than it helps them with digital solutions. So we've actually done a study with Tilburg University, um, where we looked at a digital only solution, our digital only solution, because we do also have a free app that.

That does work. It will save you some screen time. But, um, if you're using a physical interrupt in [00:11:00] our case, it's the Unpluq tag. You actually will reduce your screen time by an hour, almost an hour and a half a day on average, which if you think about how many hours you're awake every day, it's, it's more than a month's worth of time per year that you'll recover and get to spend offline and spend doing other things.

Arje Cahn: Yeah, that's great. That's great. And by the way, I do have, I've got the fob. You know, I've been using it. uh, and it's, it's interesting, right? Because you, you start to come up with new. Innovative ideas of like where do I put the tech such that I that it takes me longer to Kind of fetch it like you're saying you you you put it downstairs, right?

so you have to go down the stairs to get it and then unlock the phone and it's just Uh, it's just a bit of a hassle. So, you know, I might as well just come back to work or um Do whatever, um, I want to do in real life. So yeah, so that's uh, that's fantastic [00:12:00] now You So you said, that for you personally, this, this, this came after a period where, um, you were in a position where you were, you were getting like all these notifications all the time and work interruptions and slack and that got you to a burnout, which, which is totally understandable.

The Evolution of Media Consumption
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Arje Cahn: Can we talk a little bit about how we as a society got, got to this? Like what, did we end up in this situation?

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah, so how do we end up on average spending like more than five hours a day on our, on our phones

years ago we, we didn't, most of us didn't have them, uh, in terms And it's been a really rapid change in our behavior. It's now, for most people, the first thing that we reach for every morning is our, is our smartphone.

Arje Cahn: absolutely.

Caroline Cadwell: yeah. So I, this is a really interesting question because I, if you, if you zoom [00:13:00] back to the 50s and 60s, when people are starting to have TVs in their homes, everyone was saying, oh, it's going to rot your brain. Um, this is terrible, like we shouldn't be, you know, what do they call it, the boob tube, like the, the, the brain, anyway, bad for your brain was, was the general messaging.

Right. And, um, obviously that's not quite what happened. Um, but certainly, you know, children who were, you know, Um, denied active parenting in lieu of watching a screen had worse outcomes in their lives. Um, so we've known for a long time that spending more time, um, by ourselves or watching screens instead of interacting with other humans is not good, especially for developing brains.

Um, but then what happened is we got to the nineties and especially in the U S and I'm kind of, you know, I'm American, I live in Europe for the last 10 years, but.

to speak a bit from an American [00:14:00] perspective and about the American market because Unpluq is available worldwide, and we have customers all over the place, and especially in the Netherlands, where we're operationally based and and then, um,

Arje Cahn: to you. We will

Caroline Cadwell: 75 percent of our customers are in the U.

S. And I think it's because it's such an individualistic society and that perpetuates. Uh, the damaging part of, of these habits of how we use content, how we're consuming content on our phones. So let me, let me bridge the gap here. We got TVs in the house. Everyone was worried about it. We were kind of okay, but we started noticing that people who spent an exceptionally large amount of time in front of the screen, especially developing brains, not so good.

We zoom forward to the, to the nineties and people start having cable TV and more choice and almost the equivalent of streaming in a way because there's always something to watch. Right. It used to be that we had

Arje Cahn: I remember, uh, CNN, like when, when they started in the nineties, that was, that wasn't, [00:15:00] uh, such a massive change because all of a sudden there was news

Caroline Cadwell: 24 seven.

Arje Cahn: day. Right. 24 seven. Yeah.

Caroline Cadwell: Right. And there's not, it's not like there's more news happening. Uh, there's not more events happening. Um, we just started reporting on it all the time and, and of course for, for people who may be. We're born after this point. Um, it's important to note that before this, you would watch news for, you know, from eight to nine in the morning, there'd be a show and from like five to six, and then there'd be another one late, like nine to 10 PM, at least in us, there'd be like three opportunities to watch the news during the day, uh, on your local station.

And you would have, you know, between three and six local stations, something like that. And you, the programming was set and it wasn't on demand. And if you didn't like the next thing that was on after the show, you did like, you stopped watching the TV. Um, and also when you were watching it, you were probably watching it with the other people in your house at the same time without headphones in watching the [00:16:00] same screen together.

So that promoted a different kind of conversation afterwards. If you all consume the same thing at the same moment. Um, you're present with each other, you know, um, it's not the, like, would it be better to read a book? Probably, but like, if you're going to watch a screen better that you're doing in a community, like a community experience of watching a show, watching a concert, uh, watching a movie in a theater, it's a communal experience, right?

Um, As you pointed out,

Arje Cahn: right?

Caroline Cadwell: device as well. But also, as you pointed out, news became entertainment. It became 24 7 dedicated channel. It became entertainment. We had to repeat or sensationalize things. And you'll notice that the language around how we report news has changed a lot in that time period from the 90s until now, um, and and the kind of reporting that's done.

It's skewed away from Mhm. Factual, this is what's happening to a lot of opinion segments, a lot of like other types of content that are revolving around current events. Um, we saw with that, then, um, [00:17:00] the rise of of smartphones. So 1st introduct introducing through TV, the 24 7 content cycle, more selection, always having something to watch rather than.

Turning it off after you'll show you like then because there's nothing else you want to watch. Um, and then we get smartphones later on. Let's get past analog phones, other, other types of flip phones and whatnot.

Arje Cahn: Okay.

Caroline Cadwell: countries.

And, um, we'd now been living almost 15 years with smartphones and, uh, we start to see Individual consumption of media. So if you picture your living room, you're no longer sitting there all watching the same content at the same time and ending at the same time, but everyone is not interacting with each other, not making eye contact, not discussing the content and all consuming individually their own content.

Arje Cahn: Okay.

Caroline Cadwell: and this is, this is an important thing because you start, um, you're getting, how are [00:18:00] you selecting that content part by choice, but part by algorithm. Right. You're being suggested the next thing it continues playing. You've got suggested shows that pop up that are different from the device next to you that your friend has or your family member has.

And that serves also to radicalize things that you might've had kind of a gray area opinion about. So now we have a lot more black and white opinions about things that are polarizing. Rather than having a lot of gray area where we don't have an opinion about a certain topic, or we don't, you know, know about it, or we, um, don't have an extreme view on it, any way of yes or no, or that's right or wrong, or, um, any kind of polarizing view.

And so we see this reflected in our greater culture and politics, where we're seeing more polarization and more differences and more reasons to feel different from one another, which is kind of destroying our sense of community and destroying our ability to connect with other people. And that human connection.

And bringing back more human connection is very much what I'm focused, trying to do the way we do it.

Arje Cahn: [00:19:00] the problem you're solving for. Yeah.

Caroline Cadwell: is that we're not getting the human interaction that we really crave? And the number 1 thing that is preventing us from doing that is how much time we spend on our phones and how individual and isolating that time is.

Arje Cahn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and and then, uh, but but at the same time, you know, you have chosen to fight fire with fire. And you're using technology combat this, uh, you know, tech addiction or, or the unwellness that, that, uh, technology, gives to us. Some people might say that that will never work and that we instead need to treat, grow from tech and maybe just get rid of some of those devices, uh, or do otherwise.

What, what, what do you say when, I'm sure people say that to you. What, what do you say when they. Come to you and give you that kind of [00:20:00] feedback.

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah. So, I mean, luckily I haven't, I haven't heard that that often, um, because most people have realized how, how, how this habit is negatively impacting them and the fact that they haven't solved it on them. Right. They haven't just put the phone down. They haven't just gone and taken a walk outside without it.

They haven't. There's lots of things that you can do that are free. To, to not use your phone. You can turn it off.

Arje Cahn: at home. Yeah, of

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah, leave it at home. And yet we're not doing that. Yeah, exactly. So that's one thing is one. It doesn't work. The other is that, um, it doesn't work for most people. Some people it'll work, but it's a, it's a small number.

The other thing is, is that it's much easier to add something to your routine than to try to get you to drop something that even your physical responses are telling you and that you enjoy, which is looking at that screen. Right? So [00:21:00] it's easier to meet someone where they are and add something in terms of promoting sustainable habit change.

So if you think about like diet, dietary change. It's easier to add more vegetables in first than to get somebody to just stop eating the bad stuff. But if you start getting more full on the good stuff, you're, it's going to be easier to leave the bad stuff behind because you're not feeling hungry. So,

Arje Cahn: It didn't work for me. And now I'm eating both all the time. And yeah,

Caroline Cadwell: well, at least you have more nutrition, right? So, I mean, at least you're getting antioxidants and things like that. Fine. And you look perfectly healthy. I hope, I hope you feel healthy.

But, um, Um, so, so it's kind of like, you know, digital sugar, right? This screen time, the scrolling is digital sugar. Whereas like, I don't know, uh, you know, do a lingo.

It's a great app that I think for the most part, most people are not addicted to, although I, there are some exceptions, but most people, it's a positive thing that provides them, you know, good habits and opportunity to learn another language, which is great for your [00:22:00] brain. And like, there's some good things about it.

So it's not like we're trying to just stop using devices altogether. And I don't think that's the right message to have in 2024 because. If you can't do online banking and you can't, uh, do two factor authentication and you can't order an Uber when you need to, um, and that's why people are not on flip phones for the most part, if they do flip phone, it's usually for a couple months and they end up back on a smartphone, um, because it's just not viable today in our society.

It's not, um, some places don't even take cash anymore. And, um, who hasn't, who's, who's actually used a proper card machine lately? I mean, it's always tap to pay, so it's not really viable and, uh, it's easier to add in a new solution. And, um, it's also about paddling upstream. I mean, do, do we want to

Arje Cahn: we

Caroline Cadwell: everyone that they shouldn't be using technology?

And first of all, I don't feel that way. I think people should be benefiting from this technology and using it for good. There's a lot we can do and be more efficient and more productive and, um. You know, solve [00:23:00] the world's problems with this stuff and do it faster with it, but we've got to curb back the parts of it that make us miserable as humans.

Arje Cahn: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

The Future of Digital Wellness
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Arje Cahn: So if we would fast forward to, say 2040. 16 years from now. And, uh, Unpluq has wildly succeeded. Can you paint us a picture of how people's relationship with technology has changed what would a typical day look like?

Caroline Cadwell: Okay. So when, when I'm like it has succeeded, which it's, you know, I'm trying to,

yeah, yes.

Arje Cahn: 2040, it has been wildly successful.

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah.

Arje Cahn: look like? Right.

Caroline Cadwell: great ecosystem of solutions that help people rebalance the scales of who's in charge of how they interact with devices. Because right now it's largely what we've [00:24:00] been automatically trained to do by big tech. And that's part of why, by the way, Unpluq is not raising from, um, From from not being funded by companies that are funding big tech.

We actually are funded by our customers and by other kind of small, um, uh, investors that that are interested in seeing this change happens.

Arje Cahn: an incentive, right? I mean, what's in it for big tech to in you or to build similar technologies into their tech?

Caroline Cadwell: right. A harder business model. It gives them a little bit of edge. If they were to do it, which, which they're not really in a meaningful way, it would give them a little bit of marketing fodder of like, Hey, we're doing the right thing, guys. Um, but in reality, it would hurt their profit margins because, uh, they're fully, um, making money on attention.

And in terms of, you know, hardware like Apple, right? Like iPhones, um, they, they make, you know, Limited money on the device itself, but they make a lot of money on the app store. So if you're spending money in an online game, they're taking 30 percent of [00:25:00] that. Anything you spend through the app on your phone, Apple or Google is taking 30%.

And a lot of people don't know that. Or they don't think about it. It's not top of mind. But the reality is, not all that money you spend goes to the app developer. It goes to Google and Apple, and that's where a lot of their funds are actually coming from. So we got a little bit off topic from your original question.

Arje Cahn: The 2040 question.

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah, 2040. So if I'm like, you know, when, when I'm plug is wildly successful, 20, 2040, well past when we've, uh, you know, been known number one, I think there's an ecosystem of other companies that are complimentary or like us that are helping people to rebalance because what we're setting out to do is help people understand that they don't have to live this way.

And that they can have the benefits of technology without. So much detrimental impact on their wellbeing, their relationships, their happiness, their anxiety levels. I mean, who wouldn't be anxious if you weren't, if you were looking at news all day long, if you were, [00:26:00] uh, seeing people to compare yourself to all day long on social media, if you, um, you know, never disconnected from from work and had some time for yourself to be creative.

I mean, boredom, Is something that we have very little of today because when we feel bored, we pick up our phone and that's a real shame because Boredom is what I think gives space for creativity and for us to come up with new innovative ideas. And if we don't create space for boredom, we don't have a very bright future as a society.

Arje Cahn: so we're still talking about mobile phones, but Mark Zuckerberg just showed us a pair of glasses, and we're gonna be carrying these things around us, you know, in front of our eyes all the time if he succeeds with this idea. I guess. You know, we, we need so much more to, make sure we stay sane. What, what do you think?

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah, it's definitely about tech in general. So digital [00:27:00] habits, the way we interact with technology that's in our daily lives and how, how we can tip the scales to be more in our favor as humans to make sure that, um, we are getting the things that give us true and genuine fulfillment. And for the most part, it's not through screens.

It's the memories we have of interacting with another human, the smile that a stranger gave us, the eye contact we made with someone close to us. It's not, um, scrolling and messages and likes.

Arje Cahn: Okay. So, and clearly you've decided to make that leap into transition from your, your prior technical. Or technology career path towards that, know, it's still in technology. helping, uh, people, you know, get a little bit better or, you know, more [00:28:00] healthier, more, what's the right word here, like improve their digital wellness. You've made that transition there are plenty of people out there that I talked to who are in technology as well, and they feel that they would like to do something that is a little bit more fulfilling, as well, but they kind of struggle to. To switch to a more impactful, career path, like the one that you've chosen, what kind of advice do you have to these, these people if they're looking for to do something similar?

Caroline Cadwell: Yeah, I mean, obviously the context of their life and their financial needs and all these things are, are something to consider. Um, but I think if the assumption that they're making is that. Um, having a business or working within, um, and a business that's having impact, uh, means not earning money. They, they are wrong.

I think that there's a [00:29:00] huge industry here. In fact, we've calculated this industry of sort of, um, digital habits. And it's particularly around phones, which, as you mentioned, it's not going to be just phones. It's also people. Yeah. Um, potentially br in the future, augmented reality, smart tvs, all kinds of other devices, other types of things with screens of some kind or projections and displays.

Um, we're projecting it to be 2023 billion dollars, uh, of industry. And so it's not a minor industry. And of course that's growing as well. Um, so I, I think.

Arje Cahn: well.

Caroline Cadwell: It's an opportunity. Yeah. And, and in fact, um, for me, I'm very interested in my life and having the opportunity to help women develop wealth. We're way behind women are way behind globally in terms of wealth and independence with, with money.

Um, not just in terms of earning power and lifetime earning power, but wealth in general and investments. [00:30:00] And so, um, I, I think that You know, identifying these opportunities are of, of what are, what are these industries that are coming up like AI is coming up, but guess what happens when AI is ruling our lives while we have even more need to maintain the things that are uniquely human about ourselves and one of those things is focus, um, executive attention is the thing that makes us different from other mammals, right?

It's that ability to focus on a singular thing, singular task or topic for 15 minutes or more. And. We've recently seen news that a human attention span is on average now less than a goldfish. And it's largely because of consuming short form video. Um, so I think all of this for me is interrelated in that we can make a big difference.

There are, um, ways to have an impact and still have a healthy business. I don't think that these things are mutually exclusive.

Arje Cahn: [00:31:00] Okay.

Unpluq's Mission and Fundraising
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Arje Cahn: Great. Okay, so, um, With that, uh, you know, we're kind of getting at the end of the, uh, of the conversation at the time slot that we had allotted, but I know you, you mentioned before that in a fundraiser right now, you're not raising with the big tech companies. Instead, you said that your funding comes from customers. so do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Caroline Cadwell: Sure. Yeah. Um, so Unpluq today, you know, we, we already have quite some customers. There's about 30, 000 people using Unpluq every month. Um, 4, 000 paying customers, uh, more, actually it's more like 4, 500 these days. At any rate, uh, we are still developing our product further. Um, one of the things that we're focused on next is Unpluq Family.

We've had a huge amount of interest [00:32:00] from parents,

Arje Cahn: Okay.

Caroline Cadwell: how they manage devices and screen time, but Unpluq is really flexible in terms of being able to, um, have more control or less control over your child's device.

And we want to further develop this to make it easier to use, uh, more reliable for families. And so we're fundraising right now to fuel that growth. And to create that solution, we have a MVP right now. It's kind of, if you're unfamiliar, minimum viable products. So it's just sort of a sketch of what it will be one day, but it does work.

Um, and yeah, we're fundraising publicly right now when we funder

Arje Cahn: Yeah.

Caroline Cadwell: and, uh, we've got customers who have invested. We also have some, what we call angel investors involved with bigger tickets in the, you know, 25, 30, 000. Um,

Arje Cahn: ticket.

Caroline Cadwell: are people.[00:33:00]

Arje Cahn: You know, as a, as a consumer.

Caroline Cadwell: Good question. So like you can own part of Unpluq from 250. Um, so it, it's really something that, uh, you can invest in. Um, if you want to see this problem solved, if you want to see the world change and how we're interacting with our phones, if you want to invest because you think it's a big market, any of these are great reasons.

Um, and yeah, Yeah, we want to build out Unpluq Family, and that's kind of the main part of what we're going to be using these funds for is furthering the solution to better support, um, the entire family, adults and, and kids.

Arje Cahn: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Caroline. That was, uh, that was great. Thank you.

Caroline Cadwell: Thanks so much for having me.